Talk:Turkey

Archive 1

My recent edit

We should add some pictures from this website. http://goturkey.kulturturizm.gov.tr/

Coolcat: To include obvious POV statements such as "the race-blind system is based on equality." and "everyone is considered to be the majority" is not acceptable here in Wikipedia or in any other serious encyclopedia. I just removed the POV. Stereotek 08:46, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What I said is what turkish goverment says, what you claim is what CIA factbook suggests. Lots of people dispute the factuality of CIA factbook and those numbers are unofficial according to the CIA factbook. I explained what the system of Turkey is based on. That is not a POV. Thats how they do things. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 04:32, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat: "I will be soon reproting your HUNT for coolcat posts". Good luck! My main reason for checking your "contributions" in Turkey related articles, is that I consider the vast majority of your edits to be of extremely low quality, and not suitable for an encyclopedia. Another fact is that I consider the majority of your edits in Turkey related articles to be POV. Stereotek 07:30, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You declared anything I added as POV. You reverted all my work. That may be considered as a personal attacks and as vandalism. You are welcome to make My POV neutral by rewording, you are not welcome to revert all my inputs. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 04:35, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

hiya! I have been away for some time, and I've seen that the demographic figures of Turkish people periodically vary from %97 to %70! Come on guys, both of you are too stubborn and your figures do not reflect the truth. I am changing the figure to %85–90 (and respectively ratio of the Kurds to %10–15). I have written the reasons before (you can find them in the archive), so before changing it again, please do state your reason like I did. --wanderer 13:31, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The CIA factbook suggests 20% Kurdish rest Turkish, the Turkish goverment Suggests all Turkish, considers Kurds as Kurds (somehow dont care about the politics behind it). So those are the official HIGH and LOW values I got, to suggests 70% I need a basis. I only care about .GOV or .INT or any other "reputable" organnisation that checks for demographics world wide. There is no official declaration suggesting Kurds being the largest minority in Turkey. National Concesus is over 10 years old, (last one was declined due to corruption) --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 04:30, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is no official concensus no official numbers so thats my case. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 04:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat, you didn't just change the numbers. You also added your POV statements: "the race-blind system is based on equality." and "everyone is considered to be the majority" again. Anyway, I don't think Wikipedia should promote the Turkish state POV that the Kurdish people (and other minorities) doesn't exist. Stereotek 09:53, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat: First of all, Turkish goverment does not suggest that all Turkish citizens have a Turkish ethnicity. There is no clasification based on ethnicity in the turkish census. AND: You make Republic of Turkey look like a fascist country. I dont know what your intention is, but you are doing the propoganda in the reverse way. Stereotek: Turkish state doesn't suggest the Kurdish people doesn't exist. I understand you in a way that, if I were reading CoolCat's text and did not know much about Turkey, I would also think the way you do; but Coolcat's writings are Coolcats, its not the official policy of Turkey. They were the old (and wrong) policies of the old governments. Now, the Turkish policy is this: There is only one official language of Turkey and that's Turkish. Kurdish people are free to talk Kurdish, write (and publish books) in Kurdish, or sing in Kurdish, but they have to learn the official language as well. Thats all. They can even establish private Kurdish courses. -unsigned

All I am suggesting is all ethnic minorities are declared Turkish, sometimes they came up with a story. When I was there I realised that unlike the US people do not get special rights nor are punished because of their ethnic background. Its how the do things and should be clarified. Its called a race/ethnicity blind system. I will need resources I can check, I prefer it to be something .gov

Sparse?

I think a lot more content can be added to this, perhaps more on the decline of the ottoman empire (the balkan uprisings, joining Germany in WW1 etc) and there should definitely be more on the role Ataturk played in war of independence i.e. moving power to Ankara, the struggle against the invaders and way in which this gave them the upper hand over the Treaty of Sevres. There is more on its demography than its great history.

There should also be mention of its political setup as a multi party democracy, also inclide short profiles of its current leaders?

• Hmm.. History of Turkey may have that and may be a more aproporate place o put info. Information regarding the serves has been declared POV I am inclied to not add material.--Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 07:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Genocide

It is not just Armenia which has a problem with Turkey dt the genocide and Turkish denial of the same. The matter ultimately plays a role in teh hesitancyy many Europeans feel wrt EU and Turkey joining. Refdoc 21:33, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is not a solid fact either. Re writen with a level of uncertainty.

Added more info

Cleaned up beginning a bit, changed timeline to pre republic and post republic. Added info on Ataturk and independece as well as disintegration of Ottoman empire leading to WW1. Removed genocide sentence, doesnt fit in, feels like it was just stuck on to make a point. The article still feels sporadic, perhaps when i have time i will contribute more to it. If anyone wants to revert it to an older version please explain why first Thank you.--62.255.64.9 00:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Genocide or Rebel terrorism?

We have seen many past-Armenians who are neither living in Armenia, nor Turkey are trying to create a genocide out of nothing.

Armenians lived well and rich in Turkey and past Ottoman empire. They still do. There are many Armenian-originated Turkish citizens living in Turkey. They are happy, they don't want to go to Armenia, and there is no attitude against them. They can be easily interviewed in Istanbul where most or Armenians of Turkey live.

During WW1, some of those Armenians tried to rebel and to separate from Ottoman empire. They did this with support from Russia, both economic and military. Armenian men got weapon from Russia and attacked Ottoman officials and non-Armenian civilians to become an independent state. To overcome this, Ottoman empire rules and movement order for Armenians to keep control of critical part they live. To they moved to east. There was no massacre, no killing, nothing. Just move.

Indeed, those Armenians who used Russian made weapons to attack and kill Ottoman officials heve been killed. We do not call this genocide, but terrorism. There was no attack or killing on Armenian civilians.

Armenian people who still live in Turkey are very angry at those debates on genocide. Because they know what happened, wheter it is good or bad, it was not a genocide. They are turkish citizens and they don't want Turkey deal with these arguments because they are absurd.

Removed entry:

History

Anatolia (Asia Minor) of Turkey had been a cradle to a wide variety of civilizations and kingdoms in antiquity. The Seljuk Turks were the first Turkish power to arrive in the 11th century as conquerors (earlier Turkish peoples such as the Pechenegs had become allies and subordinates of the Byzantine Empire), who proceeded to gradually conquer the existing Byzantine Empire.

Their Turkish successors, the Ottoman Empire, completed this in the 15th century with the fall of Constantinople in 1453. At its peak under Sultan Suleyman the 'Magnificent' between 1520–1555, the empire stretched from the gates of Vienna to the Persian Gulf, from the Crimea to Morroco.

Throughout the 19th and early 20th century the Ottoman empire began to loose a foothold on its territories, first with Algeria and Tunisia, then Egypt, Libya and the Balkans in the 1912 Balkans war. Faced with territorial losses on all sides Turkey forged an alliance with Germany who supported it with troops and equipment. At the outbreak of World War I Turkey faced the choice of either supporting Germany and safeguarding its territories or placing itself at the hands of the victorious allies. Turkey entered the war on the side of the Triple Alliance (Germany, Italy, Austro-Hungary) and was subsequently defeated.

On October 30th 1918, the Mondros Armistice was signed followed by the the Treaty of Sèvres on August the 10th 1920. These sought to break up the Ottoman empire and force large concessions on Turkey in favour of its rival Greece. This led to the invasion of Izmir by Greece on May 15, 1919 and triggered the War of Independence. A nationalist movement led by Mustafa Kemal rejected the peace agreement, and organised an army which drove Greece from Turkey. By September 18th 1922 the country was liberated and the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, recognising the new borders of Turkey.

On October 29th 1923 the Republic of Turkey was proclaimed and Mustafa Kemal, taking the name Ataturk (father of Turks) would be its first President.

History Timeline (post Republic)

Since 1923, ...

• October 29 1923 Republic of Turkey proclaimed

• November 10, 1938 Ataturk dies

Discussion regarding the entry

Removed Genocide

Doesn't fit in  ????!!!! No sure does not fit into teh picture Turkey wants to present to outside. Nevertheless it is accepted part of the history (But for the Turkish government and Turkish nationalists. IF teh rest gets expanded this has to be in. Refdoc 11:12, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This isnt an article for political accusation especially something only a handful of countries recognise, pick up any published encylopedia and look at Turkey, you will not find accusations of genocide because they simply arent the place for them. --62.255.64.9 11:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is obviously a pointless argument.

1. Wikipedia is no paper, space is not a problem.
2. The pre-republican history was fairly static until recent sudden expansion was started by yourself. I fyou feel teh article is too long why are you adding stuff otehrs might hold for irrelevant, while deleting the single largest crime Turkey has committed in 20th century? The majority of historians are clear about teh matter, it is only Turkey who objects. The deaths and the facts (deportation and deaths) as such are even recognised, Turkey disputes only that this was statesponsored extermination.

It is fascinating for me that Germany will punish Holocaust denial with jail, while Turkey has not even the guts to accept that wrong things were done by a previous government abolished by an internal revolution...

Refdoc 11:25, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is not about space, its about removing opinion and allegations from fact and useful information. When you look at articles on USA, do you find mention of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Slaughter of Native Indians? Slave Trade? Racial inequality? Ku Klux Klan? All of these can be considered crimes yet the article remains neutral and concerned only with fact. Armenian genocide is too disputed in my opinion to include in a factual article. --62.255.64.9 12:01, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1. I am not American
2. In an article/article section about the USA's history these matters should very clearly be mentioned.
3. Articles are not there to make countries look pretty and good but to report what there is to report.

Refdoc 13:49, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Good E.A. This is a lot better. I have no problem whatsoever with this explanations, the dispute is in this form well displayed and we do not brush things under the carpet. Thanks. Refdoc 19:15, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A proposal

It seems some people are set on including genocide into this article, in the hope of keeping this article free of political views and accusations, i propose we integrate a section entitled "Foreign policy and disputes" and can therefore include any disputes under that. This section can include the Cyprus conflict, Armenina conflict, Iraqi concerns etc. --E.A 12:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) (i was previously 62.255.64.9)

A very poor proposal indeed. The genocide was massmurder of own population, albeit an ethnic minority. to put this solely into a "foreign policy section is a bad idea. I would though agree that we examine in teh foreign policy section how teh genocide has affected Turkey's standing in the world. Its denial is clearly one of the major influences on Europeans' hesitancy to allow Turkey to join the EU. I would like to warn you . You have absolutely no right to remove important information simply because it is disputed and because you do not like it, unless you have a clear community consensus. This consensus is not there and has never been there. Refdoc 13:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm trying to be as neutral and compromising as possible within this article, which you and others are turning into a personal political mission. The fact is only 14 countries recognise the genocide and you yourself cannot claim to have the consensus of the community in including the claims. The sentence "according to Armenian and Western sources at least 1 million people lost their life in this episode which is called the Armenian Genocide" just wreaks of politics and is not constructive in the least to the article. You seem to want the sole purpose of the article to point towards genocide for your own personal views. Its like a black person going to the USA article and mentioning the slave trade, the ku klux klan, the segregation at every opportunity. To add further insult, you are deleting entire modifications by myself with no regard to the article. --E.A 14:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think the personal political mission here is with you. The article had been stable for nearly six months until you came to delete the matter again. I have only expanded along the same lines as you expanded teh pre-Republican history. Nothing I wrote is new. I am not sure why a Black person should not mention these crimes, sounds quite fair to me, certainly when a history of teh same period is discussed. Refdoc 14:54, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Allegations regarding the disputed" is a bit too much denial. Allegations is sufficient to show that there is dispute against. Refdoc 16:48, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Armenian Genocide is not a fact as long as the very article is disputed that will be the case as far as wikipedia is concerned. This is the main article of Turkey, theire is a foreign relations section. There is also an Armenian Genocide article please do not clutter this article with your accusations, the very number of dead are disputed, everything about of it is disputed aside from the fact that lots of (unspesified amount) of armenians were asked to move a disputed number perished. Reasons, factuality is not my concern. There is no reason to turn wikipedia into a soapbox. There are 91 Armenian Genocide entries 167 jewish Genocide entries. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 21:58, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC).

I do not want to go into an armenian genocide article, I can acknowlege the existance of a dispute, I cant acknowlege it as factual.

Of course thats a neutral statement. Armenian Genocide is disputed. It could ba a fact or fiction. – Refer to NPOV article. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 22:04, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) You are welcome to discuss genocide matter in the aproporate article. This is not it, since the armenian genocide article is disputed. --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 22:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Added section on sport

i'd like people to add a lot more to this article, especially on culture, politics and even more history. I look at the articles of other states and see great explanatations of their history, If its one thing Turkey has, its great History. Its up to you people really. --E.A 00:29, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

To E.A

I won't take part in discussing with Coolcat, it is fruitless. I like your idea. The genocide can be considered as a dispute between Turkey and the West(not to be confounded with dispute among Western historians, which is not the cases). It is OK by me. If you want to get a vote about adding a new section and calling it what you've said, I'de vote yes. Fadix 01:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi, i've had second thoughts on the idea. There are already links to Foreign policy/disputes and links to Armenian conflict. I dont want the article to turn into a political minfield. Just my opinion anyway. --E.A 09:20, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Invasion of Cyprus

I cannot understand why E.A keeps deleting the note about the invasion of Cyprus in the timeline of Turkish history. I don't see any political debate on marking something that is a part of Turkish history, and has heavy effects on Turkey's foreign relations until today. There is a fact (the invasion), so it should be written. In what I wrote there was no mention if the invasion was right or wrong. Just the incident.

I wrote "In 1974, the Turkish Military invaded Cyprus in response to a Greek military coup in Cyprus leading to the crisis between Greece and Turkey and Turkey still holds part of the island despite the No. 353 resolution of the United Nations." Where is the POV on this?

E.A keeps reverting to "In 1974, the Turkish Military intervened in Cyprus in response to a Greek military coup leading to the crisis between Greece and Turkey.". This does not explain what exactly happened. How did they "intervened"? It was a full scale military invasion (for which the Turkish Military is proud of). It's like saying that the "US intervened in Iraq" (and you give no clue how they intervened). --geraki 18:45, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi, adding the sentence "and Turkey still holds part of the island despite the No. 353 resolution of the United Nations" is innacurate and POV. Turkey has no hold on the island, the North is controlled completely by Turkish Cypriots through the de facto TRNC. It is an intervention in the sense Turkish Cypriots wanted Turkey to intervene because they were genuinely persecuted from 63 to 74. It is also fact that Greece sent 20,000 soldiers to Cyprus and distributed arms to Greek cypriots, this is also fact, do i mention this in the sentence? No because it is unnecessary. --E.A 21:05, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's the Turkish POV. The TRNC is recognised only by Turkey, which still has military forces there. Anyway, this the one point, and the other is that you can intervene by many ways, one of them an invasion. We can be more clear on this. I don't want to doubt any of the things you say about the causes, and they don't have any relation to this article. I did not write anything about the rights and wrongs on the subject. But you can't ignore the only international military action of Turkey between the war of Korea and the war of Iraq. --geraki 13:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

The current wording is better, the UN resolution just sounded like the basis of a political argument. --E.A 17:05, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

DECLARATION FROM THE TURKISH CYPRIOT NATION TO ALL THE GREEK LOVERS

Thousands of Turkish Cypriots were murdered brutally by the joint Greek Occupation Forced and Greek Cypriot terrorists between 1963 and 1974. Turkish Cypriots are one of the two equal owners of the island of Cyprus and the fact that Greeks by the use of force have occupied the Cyprus Republic as if it only belonged to them, does not change this fact.

Turkish Cypriot Nation is one of the two equal owners of the island of Cyprus, and if we want and allow, Turkish army can stay in Cyprus forever. We are the owners of this country just as the Greeks are. So our consent is more than enough for the Turkish Army to stay at Cyprus and continue its job of protecting peace.

Chill out greek lovers.

Protected

Rovoam has gone beyond the pale and is reverting simply to make some kind of point [1]. Because he is virtually unblockable and rather obsessive, I have protected this article and quite a few others. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 18:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Spelling fix

Can a sysop fix "missle crisis" to "missile crisis" in the article, please? Thanks in advance! Sam Hocevar 09:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:24, 12 May 2005 (UTC)