Talk:Anti-American sentiment

Why no sections on any Middle Eastern countries?

Surely there ought to be sections on anti-American sentiments in Saudi Arabia and, say, Israel, at least. Mr. Billion 04:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Anti American in Britain

I'm British (i prefer English Myself) i wouldnt describe myself as anti american i have nothing against american people i just disagree with american government and if you look at american history you'll find its very hippocritical but Anti Americanism is largely misunderstood especially in western european countries but the media in these countries ignores the fact that america is a colonial power and a war mongering militaristic state with unacceptable nuclear capabilities.And american children are tought that america is the best country in the world and that people in other countries are denied freedoms that those in america have that is grade A Bull S**T. i think there should be a page on ordinary people in other countries as it normally concentrates on the governments opinion (how many british people in wikipedia)

Merger

I have re-merged Anti-Americanism with Anti-American sentiment. Anti-Americanism (also Anti Americanism sans hyphen and "Hostility towards America") now re-direct here. The introduction has been expanded to include the critical point of the old Anti-Americanism article: that critics of the term see it as a propaganda tool to stifle criticism. I may actually include a new sub-heading about the propaganda thing as the Anti-American article went into great detail on the point (someone else can do this if they feel not enough of that article is included here). Also expanded on the history of the concept.

Fire away... Marskell 12:35, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perceived lack of culture

I'd like to say a few words about the section dealing with the "perceived American ignorance". It's all right. But, what Americans are very often reproached for (here in Italy, for example, or in France and in Germany) is not only ignorance of important notions; it's much more: it's a thorough lack of culture. Culture is much more than notions. For example, the problem is not only that some Americans do not know where, say, Italy is, or are likely to believe that Robespierre was a contemporary of Julius Caesar. The problem is that even those who know such things very well, and even many intellectuals, have no true sense of history and of its importance, of how it is complex and full of problems; they have no, or very little, sense of intellectual subtlety, no taste for distinctions; they are superficial, simplistic and ingenuous. This, at least, is a common opinion, especially among those who have received the traditionally European humanistic education. (Someone said – was it Albert Einstein? – that culture is what remains when one has forgotten everything; well, that thing is exactly what, in the opinion of a lot of people, Americans, even those who know plenty of notions, do not have; and, what is worse, they usually do not even suspect that such a thing exists, and is very important for individuals and nations.)

Some other common opinions about Americans: 1) Such a lack of culture, and of well digested thoughts, is often considered to be a consequence of the fact that, as the commong saying goes, "they've got no history", they haven't got a tradition. 2) Americans are considered to have a sort of "horror vacui": they must act, and so they tend to be rash and reckless. They're sometimes compared to boys or children, who can't keep still. This is what is implied when they're called "cowboys". 3) Furthermore, they're considered vulgar: this opinion is very common. In the opinion of a lot of people, and even of the man in the street, they don't understand beauty: they are said not to understand the difference between a work of art, or even great historical monuments, and the products of cultural industry (what the Germans call kitsch); they are said to have no taste, and no sense of moderation.

These are only some of the opinions that are common, especially in Europe, about the "perceived American ignorance": I might tell you much more (e. g. about the "puritan mentality", etc.) I don't want to offend anybody: as a matter of fact, these opinions do exist, not only among intellectuals. (And I often agree with them; but this is unimportant here.)

Admittedly, what Americans are reproached for does exist in Europe, too. But many people think that one of the causes of this cultural and intellectual decline of Europe is the servile imitation of America, and the importation of American films, songs, words, fashions, etc. This is called American "cultural imperialism". And the resulting society is called the "mass society", where everything is vulgar, and no cultural aristocracies exist. Some call this the "Americanization of the whole planet".

Sorry for my bad English. But perhaps somebody who writes English better than I do might write something in the "perceived American ignorance" section.

User:82.49.78.250

Did you have a point?--User:naryathegreat | (talk) 23:52, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

To say America lacks culture is not only false, but ignorant. America is arguably the country with the most culture in the entire world, though there is truth to the argument that we lack a uniform and strong culture. The fact that America is made of many different ethnic groups that each brought their own culture to their new country is enough evidence to disprove the argument of our lack of culture. That is the strength of America, the fact that we are made of perhaps the entire world combined. We are Italian, German, English, French, Chinese, Mexican, etc. And yet at the same time, we are all American, and will likely be assimilated into a larger culture given time. I know this because of the fact that I myself am Mexican-American. My family has been in the geographical United States for more generations than the majority of Caucasian Americans, since the area of the Southwest was taken over by the United States. The people of this region, my region, have gradually been assimilated. Neither of my parents speaks Spanish, and my maternal grandmother is a German from Frankfurt. America is far from the only country that could be attacked with such arguments. In Europe, there are huge problems with the integration and assimilation of immigrants from the Middle East, are there not? Specifically, with the fact that the new immigrants refuse to take on the culture of their new country and clash with said culture. The murder of Theo van Gogh by a Dutch-born Muslim extremist, the incidences of beatings of homosexuals in the Netherlands by youths of Morroccan extraction, the refusal of Muslim girls to abandon their headscarves in French public schools are all examples of disunity in cultures. The fact that our culture pervades Europe (for I think that is what bothers you, not that it pervades Africa or South America) is hardly our fault and something completely natural. The recent time was ours. It was simply our time to shine and dominate, no different from how Germany dominated the world of music during the Classic and Romantic time periods, or how Italy did before it. Such arguments that America has no history are foolish. The New World was discovered in 1492, and colonization by the great European powers commenced a few centuries afterwards, well before Germany or Italy were united as countries. If the argument that we Americans have no uniform culture, could the same argument not also be used for certain parts of Germany, or perhaps Italy? Because of my German blood and the fact that I speak the language, I know of the differences among each state, Bundesland, and how each region has its own distinct culture and dialect. Bavaria is still "Freistaat Bayern," the Free State of Bavaria, something not suggestive of cultural unity. Does this lessen a Bavarian's identity with Germany? Absolutely not. In fact, the stereotypical German is thought of as a Bavarian. The other stereotypes mentioned are just those, sterotypes. Just as Irishmen are stereotyped as drunks, Frenchwomen as whores, Greek men as homosexuals, Italians as Mafiosos, and Germans as fascists or devoid of taste, Americans are stereotyped in these fashions. By the way--"Kitsch" exists in English as well as in German.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:82.49.78.250"

If I offended you, I'm very sorry. I didn't mean to offend anybody, as I said. Unfortunately, I haven't got the time to write a long answer now, but I hope I'll be able to explain myself better after.

But, first of all, what I described was not necessarily (not always, not entirely) MY opinion: these are opinions that are fairly common here in Italy, and generally in Europe (and maybe also in other parts of the world, I don't know). And I think that, if one wants to write a short essay on critical opinions about the United States, these should be mentioned, too.

Furthermore, I'm afraid you are missing the point. With some explanations or distinctions, I agree with most, perhaps with all, of the things that you say. But it seems to me that the things that you say hardly ever answer the things that I wrote. I used the words "lack of culture", but I didn't mean "culture" in the ethnological, or anthropological, sense, as you seem to understand ("the American culture", or "cultures").

I used the word in its common meaning, i. e., in the meaning that we have in mind when we say that somebody is, or is not, a "cultivated (cultured) person": that is NOT only knowing plenty of notions, it's something that can't be easily defined, but certainly includes:

— the awareness that things are usually difficult, complicated, have many different aspects;

— and that, therefore, the task of understanding requires a great effort of intellectual subtlety, and many distinctions;

— a strong dislike, and refusal, of superficial, simplistic, statements, with no, so to say, light and shade effects;

— a genuine interest in history: the awareness that man is a historical being, and that a subtle understanding of the extremely various and complex conditions of his life (not only material, but especially spiritual life; not only of present life, but also of the past) is quite NECESSARY, both to understand and to act (for example, for a politician);

— the idea that, if it's necessary to act, one must think and talk a lot before: that study, reflection, and dialogue are very important; that our will must follow, not precede, our reason;

— a certain taste for art, literature, etc., with the awareness, again, that they can't be understood without an understanding (so to say, an empathetic understanding) of their historical setting;

— ... (Sorry, I'm in a hurry right now. But I have some other points in mind.)

So, "that is the question" (to use a stupid quote). It seems to me that Americans really have great problems with the preceding points.

I hope I've not been too confused. I would really be very glad if you would tell me your opinion. And, again, believe that I only want to talk, not to offend anyone.

And excuse me for my bad English and my mistakes.

(As for "kitsch", it's a German word, though it's also used in English and in other languages.)

User:Tom Hope

Anti-Every country?

To respect true NPOV, the only way this page would be acceptable would be to creat an anti-country page for every country. Although I suspect that those pages would become just as dubious as this one. It could realistically NEVER come to a NPOV. SD6-Agent 14:38, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. As has been repeatedly noted in discussion, prevelance is the critical criteria for inclusion not this or that justification (or rejection) of the idea. That is, you may think the notion of Anti-Americanism over-blown or dubious personally, but it is often discussed and has become a part of political discourse to the extent that, say, anti-Swedish or anti-Ghanian sentiment has not. Put another way, even if anti-American sentiment doesn't exist as the dangerous prejudice it is sometimes made out to be, the idea of anti-Americanism certainly exists or we wouldn't have 13 archives of discussion on the topic. Over time, perhaps the consensus will emerge that anti-Americanism is largely a fiction created by conservatives and the article will come to reflect that.

I do think a few more anti- pages make sense (if they don't exist already). For instance, Sino-Japenese attitudes toward another, anti-French sentiment, anti-Russian sentiment in the West and former S.U., historical anti-British (Empire) attitudes etc. Marskell 06:55, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But to what extent? Which countries deserve such a page and which don't? SD6-Agent 03:52, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As a sidenote, one can note that there at this time actually exists an embryonic (sort of) anti-Swedish article at Finnish-Swedish relations. It will, however, surely develop in a slow pace and without the passions typical for this article. :-) --Johan Magnus 14:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Re. which countries: those that have (or historically had) hegemonic economic, military etc. power. As noted, I certainly think Russia and Japan are justified (see recent news on the latter). I don't think we need a hard and fast definition but if you can think of any that seem justified add them and see how they fly.

I think a critical distinction is between one-to-one resentments (Khazikis don't like Tajikis) and international phenomena (a significant percentage of the global pop has a problem with the U.S.). Finnish-Swedish relations, for instance, is bilateral not international and thus isn't really an "anti-" article. To justify an article in the style of this one, the resentment or prejudice ought to be present in different global spheres at different times. For Japan say, you have the economic resentment that was so widespread in the West in the 80's and 90's, the still lingering antagonism of its WWII conquerees plus a thousand odd years of conflict with China and Korea. With Russia there's centuries of ambivalence among Western Europeans, American attitudes during the cold war and, of course, the obvious mistrust amongst East Europeans and Central Asians. As it stands, the only other article that I know of is Anti-Australian sentiment which is quite weak and hard to justify. Anti-French sentiment in the United States needs to be edited and pared down to Anti-French sentiment (you can see my comments there if you want to try :) Marskell 20:39, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

BUSH

I find it ridiculous how when many Americans are confronted with anti Americanism, they simply point the finger at Bush, but what they dont realise is that its not just Bush. There are all aspects about American culture and people that the world doesnt like. Bush is not someone that has always been around. People hated Americans long before Bush surfaced. Besides, the American people are a direct reflection of Bush and his regime. There are many people who voted him into power. Some may even say that Bush might be moderate compared to some other Americans who are much more conservative and ruthless than Bush. One of the reason why there is so much anti Americanism is because of the American imperialist attitude.

NO! Most people in the world do not hate Americans as individuals! Why do you insist on disgracing your continent by giving people the impression that they hate Americans as individuals? Hating Americans is just as wrong as hating Jews or blacks! I mean, people do not choose to be American – so why should they be hated for it? As a matter of fact, some people hate being American – because they hate being hated for being American.

B-52

Could someone please clarify the statement, "a single B52 Stratofortresses costs more than the entire United Nations budget for a whole year?" The numbers I've dug up seem to imply otherwise. -Weltall

That must be a mistake. Perhaps the author of that sentence meant a B-2 Spirit. Though the author might mean that a B-52 costs more than the US budgest expenditures on the UN every year. I don't care to go doing the research but my guess is that it's a lot closer, but the real point is that the United States spends far more on its military that is required for self-defence and often bemoans its "unfair" dues in international bodies like the United Nations. Sentence might be factually inaccurate, but living in Canada I can tell you that I've had more than one conversation over the years about the US debt to the UN and how it's been played like violin by the US government. While this far from sums up the range of other opinions and reasons for anti-Americanism it's visible actions like non-payment of UN dues (and most especially the fact that many Americans have gone on the record supporting this behavior) that have driven the wedges into the natural cracks that are present in any relationship.