Talk:Abrene region

Pytalovo is not "an unrelated Russian name given to the city" in order to claim it as Russian.

This is a historic Russian name of the village in the region which was always ethnically Russian and before border agreement between Latvia and Soviet Union that followed Riga peace treaty of August11, 1920 Pytalovo/Abrente was part of Russia proper.

There are Russian fortifications and churches in the region that date back to 15th century, when it was part of Pskov region/principality of Russia/Muscovy.

Latvia never existed as an independent nation before 1918. Pytalovo region is presently part of Russia, just as it was historically exept for a short period between 1920–1939.

Refrences: http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/letopis.htm, http://www.pytalovo.ellink.ru/history.htm (Russian) -Fisenko

It is not said that Pytalovo is an unrelated name, it is said that it was a common Russian practice to give Russian names to conquered cities, in many cases unrelated (see names at Crimea, Kaliningrad Oblast). Whole Latvia was part of Russia before that peace treaty, and there was no "Russia-proper" or "Latvia" then, there were different gubernyas which were not drawn according to any ethnical boundaries (e.g. Livonian gubernya included both Estonian and Latvian territories, Courland gubernya – Latvian and a bit of Lithuanian, Vilnius gubernya – Lithuanian and Byelorussian and so on. The peace treaty was signed whcih recognised Latvia in those borders, it wasnt that Latvia would have invaded it and taken it over by military ofrce or such. DeirYassin 08:36, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Latvia did invaded ethnic Russian villages of the region in July 1919. Villages Pytalovo, Nosovo, Vyshgorok etc. were areas of heavy fighting between Russian Bolsheviks and Latvians prior to their surrender in 1920.

The point is: Pytalovo was historically a Russian community and part of Russia prior to the conquest of the rest of Latvia (Swedish Livonia at the time). Pytalovo BTW was part of Peterburg gubernya rather than Courland or Livonia. -Fisenko

As I said, it doesnt matter what gubernya it was of as gubernyas werent drawn according to ethnicities. E.g. a small part of southern Lithuania with fully Lithuanian-dominated regions was part of Hrodna gubernya even though the gubernya itself was Byelorussian, also the examples I gave above. And fights occured in whole Baltic region back then to to Russian (both bolsheviks and bermontians) attempts to take over the newly independent states. And previous system of voivodships, fiefs and such was not nationality based either, so the fact that it did not belong to Livonia then does not means it shouldnt belong to Latvia; Klaipeda region did not belong to Lithuania, but there was always Lithuanian majority in most of it DeirYassin 09:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

First, the articles is wrongly states what the region is part of Latvia, while currently it is a part of the Russian Federation.

Second, the articles clearly implies that the region had ethnic Latvian majority which was later forced out and "changed by Russians", which is also inaccurate.

Finally, the article implies that the region is historically Latvian rather than Russian, once again this is not true. -Fisenko

Edited the first part about belonging, edited out the wording that majority is now Russian (so that it wouldnt seem that it was different; it is true however that the Latvian share way decreased during the time, there are now people in Latvia who cannot get back their property (real estate) as it is in the region). The article doesnt implies anything historically, it just writes the real history since 1920, because Latvia did not existed as country before, nor as an adminsitrative unit or such. DeirYassin 22:16, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

So, if you added NPOV back after my last edit of certain questionable places, you have to tell what is still incorrect in your opinion, and your arguements DeirYassin 08:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

1) The town and the region were not renamed from Abrene to Pytalovo in order to be "Russified" but were given their original Russian names that existed long before.

2)The article should be entitled Pytalovo/Abrene region and the fact its is claimed by Latvia should not be the main meassage of the article.

3)The link to "Occupied territories of Baltic States" should not be there. -Fisenko

1) Ok edited that part, no reference about the general Russian policy of russianising names now.

2) Well, you should understand that the point of this article is exactly that the region is claimed by Latvia; otherwise as I understand there is no directly corresponding administrative unit. This region is solely defined by "the territory of interwar Latvia which was removed from Latvian SSR to Russian TSFR later". If you want to write about the Pytalovoskaya rayon, you should write at Pytalovo district, which would be article about administrative unit; while this is an article about territorial "dispute", that is also why it is called Abrene region – because it is only envisioned by Latvians, and not recognised by Russians as any separate entity.

3) The Occupied territories of Baltic States article exactly mentions territories of Baltic States which were part of them in the interwar, but were detached later under Soviet occupation. Abrene region is one of them. -DeirYassin 22:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)